Altering the Altar - Navigating the Same-Sex Marriage Debate - 10 September 2017 (Donna Todd)
14 September 2017
In today's message Donna speaks to us about the topical of issue of "Altering the Altar: Navigating the Same-Sex Marriage Debate".
14 September 2017
In today's message Donna speaks to us about the topical of issue of "Altering the Altar: Navigating the Same-Sex Marriage Debate".
Comments
The lens has to be through Scripture, not our own opinions or biases. Whatever my opinion or anyone else's it is what the Scriptures say. Of course, that has to do with interpretation of Scripture and being careful not to read our own opinion/bias into Scripture. Open minded doesn't mean it doesn't matter what we believe or what Scripture says. Legalizing same-sex marriage does not make it right or biblical or God's best for marriage.
Our attitude toward gay/homosexual/transsexual people needs to be a loving and a Christ-like one but our attitude toward people does not mean we accept and approve of their life-style.
We have Romans 1 but we really need to go back to Genesis and how God viewed marriage and what was his desire and plan for two people of opposite sex. I know what Donna is trying to suggest by good, better and best but I'm not sure it's helpful to describe a homosexual/gay lifestyle and marriage as good or an alternate Christian lifestyle and marriage, albeit not God's best but still good. Her argument and Scripture quoted in her presentation would not support this lifestyle or marriage as "good".
Donna didn't go back to Genesis in her Scriptural support or part of her argument or if she did, I missed it. Unfortunately if one takes a Biblical or Christian position and perspective on lifestyle and marriage he/she is seen as bigoted, old fashioned, narrow, prejudiced, naïve, discriminatory. Homosexuals/gay people don't just want to be loved and included. Love and inclusion for them means accepting and approving of their lifestyle and marriage. That's why they prefer a gay church to a "normal" church.
I would argue that Australia is more of a secular, pluralistic, multi-faith country as North America has become. Those who say in a census that they are Christian means all kinds of things. There are Christians, and there are Christians!. How many would classify themselves as born-again, disciples of Christ? How many go to Church on a regular basis?(not that this necessarily mean a person is Christian or not Christian, but we are commanded in Scripture not to forsake the assembling together).
I don't think Leviticus is a good book of the Bible to use as a foundation for Donna's argument but Jesus said "I haven't come to do away with the law but to enhance it, fulfil it". God has given us enough knowledge and wisdom to discern what is cultural and what is Scriptural and permanently binding.
Is it a good alternative for a family/children to have two gay/lesbian people as parents? A male/father is needed for balance in a family. Children need both male and female role models other than just male models outside the home.
We are not forcing people to believe what we believe but that doesn't mean we need to be apologetic about our Christian values and beliefs. We need increasingly to be strong about what we believe at a time when Christian values/beliefs are under siege in a multi-faith, pluralistic, secular society.
We have pride celebrations in our country that was at one time a day, then a week, now a month and political figures and law enforcement leaders who because of personal conviction choose not to attend or support are persecuted and criticized. In these parades they flaunt their sexuality and nudity and give the message that homosexuality/gay is really all about sex and sexuality. You don't see heterosexual people parading publicly and displaying nudity and sexual activity. That is why the homosexual community brings criticism towards it.
I agree with how to treat people as Christians but treating them like Christ does not necessarily mean that we accept and approve a lifestyle that is not Scriptural. Jesus was very openly critical of the hypocrites and the religious community and ate with publicans and sinners. We can eat with them and love them and respect them but Jesus didn't himself sin or engage in sinful behavior in order to be accepted or seen as being "open-minded". He was able to love the sinner and mix with him without sinning or adopting his set of beliefs/values/lifestyle.
Sorry, I think that the sermon is an attempt to have it any way, all ways to accommodate everyone regardless of their lifestyle. History shows that the downfall of the great civilizations was due to immorality and homosexuality, where sexual relationships between men and boys, between adults and children, between people of the same sex was seen and practiced as "normal". It sounds simple and it was more complex than that but at root of the downfall was sexual immorality, both heterosexual and homosexual.
People are welcome at this Church but it doesn't mean we should stop preaching and teaching Scriptural truth, and holding up God's best for each individual. Donna has done a good job with a difficult subject and credit her for her courage and for a balanced treatment of the subject but I have made my comments here in response to what she has said and of course understand that this is my personal perspective and position that I'm sure would be challenged by other Christians. But I stand with it after 70 years as a Christian, as a student of the Bible and Christian theology, as a Salvation Army officer, and as an active observant of our world and where our world seems to be heading. A great preacher once said, "I hold the Bible in one hand and the daily newspaper in the other". Thank you Donna for your presentation/message. I hope there will be many other officers in the Army who will have the courage and conviction to speak out publicly on such topics. Because something is controversial doesn't mean we should be silent.
I don't think Donna is right on the fact that a person is born with homosexual/gay tendencies or bent. The argument is if there is a sexual bent or tendency then it should be accepted as normal and followed rather than suppressed or repressed. Gay people don't think they should have to suppress their sexuality but give full expression to it.
I don't think what was said in Leviticus could be defined as a "guideline" for the Jews. A law is not a guideline. It is basically absolute.
Thank you so much for your very helpful yet confronting exposition on this difficult subject . I personally thought that I had it all sewn up however you have given me insights which are causing me to think again.
I heard your message just as I was going to bed ....and of course had it on my mind for some time before I eventually got to sleep. I think you are probably one of the clearest in voice clarity and presentation I have ever heard . Which I commend you for....I have all my three adult children believing that to be homosexual and have a partner should be ok now, because we live in the New Testament and not the old. Etc etc and here is me their Mother believing that it is wrong .....that God never Changes...what He says He says and there is always a good reason why....so this has caused us (, after a few strained discussions on the topic) to avoid any further conversations on the subject. Can see what the Bible says that our " enemies" will be from our own household.....although I know they love me, it has caused a walking on eggshells feeling ....my daughter and her husband were elders in their church and had to leave because they felt that the Church was wrong . satanism is a very subtle and clever manipulator ....he has been conditioning people's minds for years and the media has had a lot to do with the way we eventually accept things . His only intention is to undermine EVERYTHING God The plan and Word of God.Hasnt changed since he fell from Heaven.....says in Scripture as you would know.....how fast things will deteriorate in the last days... This is the time of great deception . Things which should not be, are made to look like there is no harm in it.... So let it be , attitude. With every choice in life, comes consequences , and if this bill is passed then our nation will suffer the consequence of its decisions. I think that people think that God needs to fit into whatever " box" they want... They are are deceived into thinking that if we don't agree with Homosexuals , we don't love them .....How wrong is that !! What did William Booth say....hate the sin with all your heart, but still the sinner love. If God wanted men to have sexual relations with a man , he certainly would have created a vagina as well as a penis , and likewise with a female ...they would have a vagina and a penis! The whole idea by Satan and mankind , is to make it Look like God made a huge mistake in His designing of how man and women should be and function! God NEVER makes mistakes ....God loves the homosexuals very much but wants them to be helped not patronised... Yes , we ...the NO Christians are going to be persecuted because of our stand. so be it . If we DONT love God MORE than any other person, or ideology, or object or any other thing that sways our belief in what God says, then we are not really IN LOVE with HIM ......He says that Himself. .....I believe your heart is trying to say and do what is right , ......but in saying anything for Jesus anywhere....whether in " the pulpit " or in conversations to others , comes with great responsibility..... .........Can I recommend that you read a new book out which will be helpful I feel to show how mankind has been slowly brainwashed by Satan to think wrong is right ....it is called THE MARKETING OF EVIL by David Kupelian . I am reading a copy ATM and it's a real eye opener.....When I tried to order one there was none left and they are waiting for another lot to come in at Koorong... It covers
These topics........selling Gay rights to America, Killer culture and whose selling Sex and rebellion to your children,the campaign to destroy marriage, sabotaging our schools, ...the media Matrix( how the press creates a world of illusion we think is real).....the lying marketers selling unrestricted abortion to America , and the rise and fall of American Christianity.........This doesn't only apply to America but also to Australia and other countries..... Anyway I must needs go now. Want to talk anytime, I would love to converse with you. You have a good day, and God be with you .
Thanks Donna for reminding us that the God of prevenient grace calls us, as Jesus' followers, to live as people of grace.
thank you for being so brave to bring it up as a salvation army officer. I must tel you by expirience as a ex salvation army officer you have a long way to go. let me give you one advice look deep in to the first verses of the old testament about God created man and woman and find out what is the meaning of that bible vers. whis you good luck
wil elhorst